-
-
- Registered: 2018-02-11
- Topics: 1
- Posts: 6
1＃ Go ToIMO fire main is the weakest, but someone already said that and people disagree and give some cases where fire main is strong / annoying
so I want to open discussion about comparing fire main skill against other main, regardless of what ninja you have in your lineup
*Auto Attack
fire main: 1 option can trigger chase skill (laughable), 1 option can trigger hit combo skill, 1 option can cause sleeping, 1 option to attack 4 units and may cause burning
lightning main: 3 option can trigger chase skill, 1 option can heal and displell buff and be immune to buff
wind main: 1 option can trigger hit combo skill, 2 option can trigger chase skill (rasengan barrage have high chance to do so), 1 option to spawn clone (which have high chance to trigger chase skill)
water main: 1 option can heal (may heal 2 instead of 1), 3 can trigger chase skill (water whip can cause acupuncture, 1 other have high chance to trigger chase skill)
earth main: 3 option to trigger chase skill (konoha hurricane can attack up to 3 unit and cause repulsive), 1 option to grant shield to 2 unitsso, why is fire main the only one who have 1 option to trigger chase skill? in a game where chase skill combo is one of it's main selling point, why this?
the chance of setting 4 units on fire is inferior compared to chance to trigger chase skills especially with earth main being able to damage multiple units and still be able to trigger chase skills, also water main being able to cause acupuncture and knockdown. I honestly can't see anything to consider fire main auto attack being comparable to others*Chase Skills
fire main: all of them are ninjutsu attribute only, nothing is mixed (taijutsu & ninjutsu attribute). 2 can cause ignition, 1 can cause blindness, 1 cause imprison
lightning main: 3 option are mixed attribute. 1 can cause paralysis and high combo.
wind main: 3 option are mixed attribute. 1 can cause blindness, 1 grant extra attack, 1 can trigger twice
water main: none of them are mixed attribute. 1 can heal, 1 cause critical hit
earth main: 3 option are mixed attribute. 1 can cause ignitionIMO mixed attribute is better, but I can see argument from other side that ninjutsu or taijutsu attribute only is better, so yeah nothing major from me.fire main is better in this case, being able to cause debuff with any of his chase skill
*Passive
people argue that fire main have mirror return genjutsu, able to transfer 1 debuff, but lightning and wind main are able to make themself and other unit immune to debuff. and with water main that have passive that make any taijutsu damage her entire lineup cause also cause poisoning debuff, being immune to debuff is much, much better that transfer 1 debuff. Yes the immunity only last for 2 rounds, but those rounds are the most important round in fights. being guaranteed that your ninjas will be able to do chase skills and cast mystery skills in those first 2 round is great adventage.Even in a long fight lightning main can increase his power for every unit that dies, wind main can gain chakra and power everytime she trigger chase skills (which she can trigger twice each round with just shoot down rasengan). earth main defense increase as his heath drop, and water main can cause chaos for any critical damage (1 chase skill guaranteed that, and 1 mystery skill have high chance to do that to 4 units).
I dont know how to compare earth main since his passive is mostly about shields, which no other main care about. But he can be immune to low float, repulse, high float and knockdown, so he have quite good optionswhat does fire main have to compete against that? 50% damage against puppet & summon? LOL any main have passive that increase their damage 40% to any unit for themself and 3 other unit with the same elements as them. Lifesteal? lightning main get 25% increase in attack and 25% lifesteal while fire main get 15% increase in ninjutsu and 15% lifesteal. whatever you can think of, other main have a better version of that.
*Clones
fire main clones is so weak, for comparison, ligtning, wind, and water clones can attack on their own. Why is this significant? consider this, if fire main is blinded / immobile / under chaos, his clone effect would be useless, while other clones can still function as they can attack on their own.
water and fire main both can only generate 1 clone, but water clone health is 60% while fire clone is 40%, if water clone disappear it returns 30 chakra, fire clone doesn't do anything when dies
so that is my case about fire main, and with that I have some suggestion to make
1. Improve his genjutsu attack, so it will cause sleeping, but with a chance of causing immobile / knockdown, the justification is that all attacks have normal state and combo state, but fire main genjutsu attack doesnt have the combo state, so just add one. I personally prefer if it cause knockdown rather than immobile.
2. replace his blast bomb attack with some fire stream jutsu that attack one row and have chance to cause repulse, like hinata [great ninja war] attack. the justification is that his attack just lack chance to cause some kind of chase combo, but earth main already have one that attack entire column, so to make a difference fire main attack should attack entire row.
3. replace Mirror Return with his 4th mystery skill, so at the beginning of the fight, he will make his entire lineup immune to debuff for 2 turn. the justification is that while lightning and wind main can only give it to specific category (sword user or female), they also increase their power, while fire main can grant immunity to entire lineup, it's only immunity, nothing more. I think it's a fair trade off.
4. replace his clone effect, so now the clone have 50% health ba
sed on the main ninja, have phoenix fire chase skill, and can evade the first attack each round. the justification is while other clone can attack to start chase combo, this one can help your chase combo. while water main give you chakra when disappear, this one can evade the first attack each round. If the devs think evading attack is too much, just replace it with exploding when dies, like edo mizukage clone.
This post was last edited by bleakblack on 2018-04-08 23:20:36. -
-
-
- Registered: 2018-02-11
- Topics: 1
- Posts: 6
- vsai12 On 2018-04-08 23:57:48
-
If you are relying on your auto attack to start your combo, your mysteries must be completely terrible along with ur init. Fire main has one of the best auto attacks in the game, being to hit multiple targets that don't have to be a specific position and have an auto attack that can completely control opponent.
You said nothing about his mystery and you are comparing them. Fire main's shield mystery basically allows his team to be unaffected by debuffs for one round, and it can ANY unit. Wind only can give 2 and it has to be female, while LM has to be sword and only gives 3, and these both last for only 2 rounds, and u can't time it. A han or masked man can easily remove one units buffs, along with the now arising shisui and itachi anbu me
ta. Fire main gives all regardless of what the units are and he can choose when to use it. You underestimate the power of mirror genjutsu. If your opponent doesn't have a mirror, they will have an annoying time dealing with your team if their first debuff is a control debuff, such as shisui chaos.
At end game, basically all the mains are used for support. Fire main is one of the strongest support, immunity + shield, ignite multiple units, reflect debuff, and all his chase skills cause debuff which is another plus. His clone is probably the most underwhelming thing about him but an end of the round sleep/ignite is still amazing.
"If you are relying on your auto attack to start your combo"
I don't, at least not after the first round. But for the first round there is not much ninja that have mystery with 0 battlefield cooldown and able to start chase combo. Other main can rely on their auto attack to start that, why can't fire do that?
even earth main can hit multiple target and still can start chase combo
"You said nothing about his mystery and you are comparing them."
because I don't have any problem with fire mystery skills
"Wind only can give 2 and it has to be female, while LM has to be sword and only gives 3, and these both last for only 2 rounds, and u can't time it"
yes, it last for the first and second round, both the most important rounds in fights. with 3 turn cooldown, fire main can only protect the team for the first OR the second round. other than that the fight is basically finished
"You underestimate the power of mirror genjutsu. If your opponent doesn't have a mirror, they will have an annoying time dealing with your team if their first debuff is a control debuff, such as shisui chaos."
yes, then the chaos debuff is transfered back to shisui, but he is immune because of lightning main and he cast his spell in the second round. get it now why it is still inferior?
"At end game, basically all the mains are used for support. Fire main is one of the strongest support, immunity + shield, ignite multiple units, reflect debuff, and all his chase skills cause debuff which is another plus. His clone is probably the most underwhelming thing about him but an end of the round sleep/ignite is still amazing."
yes and at end game, all fights basically ends within the first 2 rounds. but I agree, time it right and his sleep is annoying. If the opponent is not immune that is LOL
and since you mention shisui so much, let'ts compare fire main to shisui, shisui attack guaranteed 2 ninja get burned and have high chance of repulsive, compared to maybe set some or all of 4 opponent on fire
-
-
-
- Registered: 2018-02-11
- Topics: 1
- Posts: 6
- RayzofRadiance On 2018-04-09 00:43:24
-
1. Auto attacks: I agree on fire having one of the worse compared to the other characters but i don't believe it needs a buff as it's still useful. For example if you're running a control team(without shisui) with fire main and you want to cc a dodge ninja that's sheilded by some ninja/tanky clone late this round so he's immobilized next round, you'll need some ninja to bait out this standard. Due to the fire main's standard hitting up to 4 units and clone giving him 1+ standard, there's a good chance you can bait out the dodge to cc the dodge ninja. If you were running a wind main control team and the enemy protected the dodge ninja, you would have to waste a mystery to bait off that dodge to cc the dodge ninja. Also why does combo even matter, there's usually 3 other ninjas that can set up the combo and usually main is pos 3 or pos 4 so some other ninja well set it up, and other mains don't rely on combo standards either. Earth main runs shields, wind main usually runs clones, end game light main teams usually use the chakra gain, and water runs heals.
2. Talent changes: Won't work cn has already developed those and we'll eventually get the update when our oasis feels it's time. His clone gets a buff tho that's all ik.
3. Ok when comparing the mains individually fire main looks weak, but when you look how good mains synergize with ninjas that changes. Here's a rundown,
Fire main synergizes with a lot more/better ninjas than lightning main and maybe wind atm. Wind can't give immunity to extremely powerful ninjas atm and the light main teams are strictley with swords ninjas which are all pretty squishy. On the other hand, fire main can give 1 round immunity to all ninjas which allows better synergy with top teir ninjas. With the debuff transfer, most ppl will have to wait after it's baited out to use mm to debuff fire main/break the immunity(or you c*e the mystery after mm has used his), and the mystery attribute of the immunity allows a better chance against han.
His oboro clone+shield is decent protection for pos 1 squishy ninjas not to be blitzed r1 which other mains can't provide well because none of them buff defense(all standards are usually tai/mixed tai) or run a tanky clone without becoming *.
His chases also help make up for some of his weaker passives.
Although his passives don't synergize the best like earth and water main atm, he's still doing well in the me
ta atm so he's good for now. If you expect fire main or any main to be top teir at every attribute of a main that's unrealistic as every main needs to be competitive so they all have a niche somewhere.
1. OK it is useful for baiting a dodge ninja, but when compared to others, earth main standard change to cause immobile and low float when he is already shielded, wind main clone can tank or can start the chase combo for you, water heal and dispel debuff, it's still useful, but not that useful compared to others, especially outside those special case you mention
2. well at least the clone is getting a buff so it's good
3. of course i don't expect fire main to excel at everything, but what does he excel at anyway? whatever support he is trying to give, defensive or offensive, other main can do it better
dealing with debuff? use lightning or wind, if its not female or sword user? use water main to dispel it.
earth will stand in front, immune to chase combo and keep shielding those behind
wind clone will be all the enemy attacking, easily generated
water will keep the team alive while chipping away enemies health with poison.
lightning can stand in front and be immune to all debuff and keep healing himself.
fire main doesn't have that
if for example, one of fire standard is to give ninja with the least health a genjutsu shield to make him/her evade the first attack / mystery skill, and his passive support that kind of role, that would be cool. of course that is just an example, it could be anything really, that he can be excel at something.
for now, yeah he can synergize with more ninja than other main, but those synergy is not much, only his 4th mystery does. while other main can synergize much more to their specific niche.
This post was last edited by bleakblack on 2018-04-09 01:56:05. -
-
-
- Registered: 2018-02-11
- Topics: 1
- Posts: 6
I don't understand why those saying fire main is strong keep bringing super spesific case where he is good against han, good at end game level, etc
did you ever consider the rest of the gameplay? where he is not against han, where he doesn't have madara and shisui? where lightning main with it's swordman * finish your team within the first second rounds? where lighning kill fire clone with 1 beam of light and its chase combo and then kill the ninja it is defending with 3 beam of light? where you watch water main with hinata spread poison to your entire lineup and be half health after the first round finished? where shisui cast his mystery in the second and third round, because wind main reset his cooldown, then her 5 clone clean up the rest?I too can come up with many, many spesific cases where fire main doesn't do * compared to other main, which is why my original post is comparing all main regardless of your ninja lineup
I too would like to have compensation, what does fire main have compared to other main? which can be applied to many cases throughout many stage of levels? his chase skill all cause debuff? surely you can't argue that ignition is more annoying than acupuncture? or paralysys? or immobile? especially imprison, which may or may not give damage because the target can just not cast their mystery, or at least wait unti it is dispelled first
just like many people have said, fire main is annoying, but thats all he is, annoying. does not mean you have hard time dealing with him, does not mean your ninja will be unable to do chase or mystery skill, you just need to outsmart his mirror return, thats all. his immunity skill? just wait 1 round, or better yet, interrupt him or use acupuncture
-
-
-
- Registered: 2018-02-11
- Topics: 1
- Posts: 6
- ZWen On 2018-04-09 21:47:41
-
Fire main don't actually need a lot of changes in his kit like many others said. He just need a few add-on effect on his current kit.
Mystery :
- 3rd mystery should ignore and go through immune to debuffs ninja, remove the cd reduction passive if Oboro clone is present.- 4th mystery's mystery should add a shield ba
se on his TOTAL res, not his ba sed res. Passive :
- Mirror return should be revert back to 1.0 where it give a passive buff that increase damage deal to ignited targets because this is his best gimmick imo. He is a fire jutsu expert so he should act like it. But currently ignite is kinda weak beside it only purpose to counter some water team because it capped at 1k9 damage per tick and there are many immune ninjas out there.
I think that's all fire main need. So all main are unique and have their own gimmick.
Fire : ignite and increase damage on them, strong control.
Lightning : immune swordman and leech and mystery cd reset and paralyze and look cool.
Water : healing, remove debuffs, poison.
Earth : shielding, increase damage when have shield.BTW I know this thread is kinda useless because no matter we discuss here won't reach tencent. But who care about that? As long as you have fun typing stuffs lol
that would be nice, now his ignition can pose more threat if left alone
and yeah too bad we can't reach the dev from here, I write this out of feel of helplessness LOL
-
-
-
- Registered: 2018-02-11
- Topics: 1
- Posts: 6
- Kevinlinfaman On 2018-04-11 07:09:48
-
I'm too lazy to read your essays so all I can say is that your wrong. Fire main is useful and his main is basically triggered with debuffs like my personal favs: Blindness, Imprison, and Sleeping. Your probably a low level who fights Higher teams and gets beaten by them with Fire main. Plus since he has immunity to debuffs, transfer debuffs, give debuffs, buff his team, and can heal people when attacking with ninjutsu, it pretty much proves he's useful. Again your probably saying he's useless just by comparing him to other mains.
if my essay can be summed up into two sentence, it is this "anything fire main can do, other main can do it better. fire main is the only one without niche he is excel at"
Im at lvl 79, I dont think its low level. in fact, if Im still low level I will not care so much about FM since at low level its more about numbers in your power rather than utilizing every little detail your main and ninja has
well of course I am comparing him to other main, if not it will only boil down to spewing all super specific ninja lineup to prove he is as strong (if not stronger) than other main, and everyone can come up with anything like that not just with fire main but other main as well
-
Log in in order to Post. LOGIN | Register