I wouldn't mind. :D As long as you don't forget to add this page as a source and me as author.

As of 4.0 update, hovering over ninja's icon in ninja list shows not only his abilities, but also displays a short summary of debuffs the ninja is capable of causing.

It makes this guide partly useless, mainly for the descriptions part, which annoys me a bit tbh xD However, it's good to have some confirmation that data in this guide is correct. There are some things wrong with them though, namely: Poison doesn't say it can stack. Slow doesn't say it slows down a cast of mystery skills as well. Immobile and Chaos doesn't say they prevent chase skills.

(Tag still says it reduces def and res by 30%, while, as posted in comment #3, testing has shown the debuff causing only 10% def and res reduce...) - this might be my mistake, as pointed in comment #26 by Masurao, so I will further refrain from using the "reduced def and res" and instead use "increased damage suffered".

I'd like to add that every 1000 difference in control stats gives 10% chance to resist a debuff.

Which means if you have 3k control and your enemy 13k you will always control fail him.

i'm pretty sure is capped at 95%

Chaos, Sleeping, Immobile cancel each other. I tested it using Shisui and Kushimaru. I chaosed a ninja with Shisui and immobile with Kushimaru on the same round, and the next round, its back to normal. If a ninja can suffer chaos and immobile at the same time, then he will still be chaosed on the next round coz Shisui's chaos lasts for 2 rounds. So yeah, they cancel each other.

It should be noted that a 30% decrease in def and res does not mean a 30% increase in damage.

Yes, chaos and immobile cancel each other, plus chaos and sleeping cancel each other. But immobile and sleeping can exist at the same time. It's hard to test it, but with clever use of Fu and Shikamaru, I've managed to do both debuffs on one ninja.

I don't see how that would be possible, but since we don't know the exact formula for calculating damage in NO, let's just say that it increases damage by 10%... We can agree on that, right?

Interesting :o Would you mind linking some source for me? Manually testing percentages is nearly impossible :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Csa-HFddekI

skip to 4:43 in this video where he talks about control stats.

The video also talks about capability of pos2-3 moving faster than pos1 ninja with initiative difference (pos2 needs to have 10k more initiative than pos1 to move faster, and pos3 needs 20k more)

Thank you very much, I've pointed readers to your comments from relevant points in the guide.

Not really, it would depend upon how much attack you had relative to the target.

If you had 4x as much attack as your target had defense, say 4k vs 1k, you'd expect to do 3k (4k-1k) damage before tagging and 3.3k (4k- 700) after, a 10% increase.

But if you had only 2x as much, say 4k vs 2k, it would increase from 2k (4k-2k) to 2.6k (4k-1.4k), a 30% increase.

Which would imply that if you had higher defense than opponent's attack he would deal 0 (zero) damage. Which is not true, there is always some damage done. Like, if I go to TI with Haku and Zabuza, that is fought at level 30, they surely don't have enough attack to go over my defense since their sum of power is lower than my one unit. But they still do like +-40 damage in a hit.

Well yea tag still decreases defense so there will be an increase in damage. Its just that the same percentage decrease in defense does not mean its the same percentage increase in damage.

Yeah if they didn't modify the formula defense was near or greater than attack that would happen, but my understanding was that they have a correction exactly so that what you describe doesn't happen.

I thought this had been worked out and was pretty common knowledge? This model of damage would explain the discrepancy between the description of tag and your results. Maybe we could do some testing at different levels of attack to try to confirm/contradict this?

Edit: Also, even if this isn't how it works, I have trouble thinking of any model where a 30% reduction in defense would consistently result in a 30% increase in damage. What model are you proposing?

Which is why I want to use "increased damage" as the effect of Tag, rather than "reduced def/res", for understanding sake. Because damage can be tested for, defense and resistance not really...

You lost me there... That thing I've described is how it works right now. Which means your description of how damage is calculated (attacker's Atk - defender's Def) is not possible. On the other hand, I have no objections to the possibility that 30% decrease of Def/Res does actually mean 10% increase of damage or any other %, based on level... I am aware that my testing wasn't nearly as thorough as it could have been.

Which is exactly why there is this line at the end of the guide:

"If you, however, think I am wrong about something, please try and post a proof in your comment."

So, please, do just that. I acknowledged that you might be true, I've changed the respective part of the guide, to match the testing I've done. Now it's your turn to prove me wrong by digging deeper. ;)

Edit: Didn't realize I was on a separate account when I wrote this, this is the same as ShikiIga, sorry for any confusion.

Sorry if that was unclear, when I said "what you described" I meant your hypothetical "if you had higher defense than opponent's attack he would deal 0 (zero) damage", not the part where you described what actually happened. We are both agreed on what actually happens and that the formula is more complicated than attack-defense for the reasons you stated.

As far as evidence against the flat 10% boost, that's pretty easy to check. If the effect is anything more complicated than what you are proposing, anyone with different attack/*ion values would be unlikely to get the same value by chance. So I just checked my Suigetsu damage with and without tags.

Without tags, on the single strikes I got an average of 3.5k and with tags I got 4.2k. On the double strikes I got 2.0k without tags and 2.4k with tags. On the triple strikes I got 1.6k without and 1.8k with. The triple strikes could be consistent with a flat 10% boost but the single and double strikes look closer to a 20% difference.

A couple notes for future testing

- I wanted to use Suigetsu to be consistent with your tests, but he may not be the best choice due to the single, double, triple attack business. We basically have three subsets of data which means it'll take longer to get a statistically significant set, and it would be easy to miscount the number of strikes which would mess up our data.

-I'm less confident about the triple strike data since it often (always?) resulted in chases making it harder to catch the values. Do triple strikes resulting in chases needed to be tracked separately or is the damage the same?

-I noticed you gave a single value but I saw a lot of variation, did you give average values or did you only test each attack one?

To answer your question: it was an average of 10-13 values across 3 fights with Kakashi; as Sui (obviously) didn't trigger all 3 "subsets" the same amount of times, rounded to one decimal place.

The reason for Suigetsu was that he has the double attack, so you get twice the data in the same amount of rounds and he can cause Tag on mystery, so you can choose when you want to trigger it. If you think any other ninja will be easier to test, go ahead. Since our Attack values are certainly different even for Suigetsu alone, it won't make any more difference.

Results of your testing so far are noted, and Tag section edited according to them.

Helped me a lot!