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[ Help ] Space time AI useless

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  • Registered: 2017-07-24
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On 2017-05-10 07:09:46Show All Posts
2#
The mystery cast order is deterministic, having a strict order of priorities (that usually goes from high cost to low cost)
And in case of ties, depend on order that you placed the ninja on the field(so I've been told)

So if your opponent's "AI is smart", that's because your opponent was smart and composed a team that would cast correctly.
And if your "AI is totally useless", well, guess who messed up?
  • Registered: 2017-07-24
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On 2017-05-10 08:41:30Show All Posts
4#
  • WhoWhat On 2017-05-10 08:09:35
  • well considering I always place my first position first you sir are totally incorrect
According to this:
http://forum.naruto.oasgames.com ... 039&highlight=space
You are the cause of your own problem--the one you place LAST cast first.
Of course, the OP there says it's not working for him, but the others insist that's how it works.

I said, and I quote, "depend on order that you placed the ninja on the field", I never said it is in that order. According the thread I linked, people seems to think it goes by the reverse order.
Edit 2: I also said, and I quote "in case of ties", it is not even established that your 4th position mystery is in a tie with your first (and no, cost is not the only thing, some mystery just have precendence over their peers).

In any case, it most certainly is deterministic, as that's the easiest way to make it. How it works exactly, I'm not 100% sure. The very fact that it uses your 4th position every single time proves that it's deterministic.

Edit: from personal experience of using 2 40 costers on auto in survival, it seems that it depends on the enemy as well. My sage naruto is always prioritzied over my GNW Kankuro at the start of turn 2 regardless of placement order. However after dancing, if my opponent loses 2 or more ninja, then GNW kankuro will be the one to Q his ability over the sage naruto. I have observed this pretty much every single time, so it does seem deterministic and favor certain abilities over others. So there is certainly someways in which you can influence the behavior of the casting with team placement. Thou I honestly can't tell you what the exact rules are, I'd need to see the code to do that.

This post was last edited by PraiseLuka at 2017-5-9 16:53
  • Registered: 2017-07-24
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On 2017-05-10 11:09:56Show All Posts
8#
  • On 2017-05-10 10:42:04
  • There are a bunch of consistant rules on how the autobattle AI uses skills. First of all, position/initiative doesn't seem to matter at all. What matters is the chakra cost of the mystery, the order the ninjas were placed/moved, and some special conditions like interrupt/heal skills. The order the ninjas are placed is changed whenever you add a ninja or move a ninja. Adding or moving a ninja puts them at the end of the order. So for example, if you add Naruto, Sasuke, and Sakura to your team in that order, you ninja order will be Main -> Naruto -> Sasuke ->Sakura. If you then move Naruto to another spot (or move him and then move him back if you want to change your order but keep the same formation), your new order will be Main -> Sasuke ->Sakura -> Naruto. This order is also the order the ninjas will do their start of combat effects, like clones and shields/buffs, which is important if youre trying to get certain clone setups or have shields hit clones.

    Mysteries get cast by the AI using this priority:
    1. Chakra cost (high -> low)
    2. If skills with the same chakra cost can be used, they will be used in reverse ninja order

    These are the general rules for most mysteries. Interrupt mysteries behave differently. It will save chakra for them initially (didn't do enough testing to figure out exactly how long it'll wait, but it seems to usually be around when move 2 starts/ends) and use them at the highest priority if the enemy uses a skill. Otherwise they will be used at the lowest priority. So roughly:

    0. Interrupt skill (if the enemy is using a mystery)
    1. Chakra cost (high -> low)
    2. If skills with the same chakra cost can be used, they will be used in reverse ninja order
    3. Interrupt skill (if the enemy is not using a mystery)

    Support skills (heals, revives, etc.) will be cast when they will do something (not sure on priority). This is a pretty general description of how they work, but it's enough for most lineups that just want mysteries cast in a certain order.

    If you post your team and say what you're trying to accomplish mystery-wise, I can probably figure out how to make that happen. If it's just having your pos 1 cast it's mystery instead of your pos 4, just move your pos 1 to another space and move it back (to put it at the end of the ninja order).

    EDIT: Also want to echo the above comments that there are a lot of small nuances that may cause skill to go off not in this order, this was just a very general order (mostly for damage skills).

    EDIT 2: Fixed a big typo - chakra cost is high -> low, not low -> high
    This post was last edited by cra***@gmail.com at 2017-5-10 11:00
As I've mentioned earlier, AI prefers my sage naruto over my GNW kankuro when enemy have a full team while prefer GNW Kankuro over sage naruto when enemy only have 1 or 2 member left. Placement doesn't matter (and I actually do know my placement order, in order to control clone spawn locations), cost are the same.

So mystery priority before the "tie breaker" of placement order does exist. Exactly what is prioritized thou, I have no idea.

Also, I think barrier skills have higher priority than most regular skills too, not 100% sure on that thou.
  • Registered: 2017-07-24
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On 2017-05-10 17:40:55Show All Posts
11#
  • Zelgadis~ On 2017-05-10 16:40:22
  • Maybe is because gnw kankuro mystery add a bad status while sage naruto one doesn't do. The ai thinks is better to depower them than to try to direct kill them.
The debuff is applied to all enemies thou, so won't that decision be regardless of how many enemy are left? as it were, if there are 4 left, it will use sage naruto instead.

The mislabeling of his ability as a single target ability seems more reasonable to me. Or perhaps it's defaulted as puppet summoning, and AoE in general have a low priority when there is few targets so both single target and summoning like kankuro(and maybe kabuto) take precedence.
  • Registered: 2017-07-24
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On 2017-05-17 03:49:20Show All Posts
25#
  • Bojangle On 2017-05-17 03:45:49
  • So based on this post, there is no way to get Inner Gates Lee and Crimson Fist to work together? Better yet, if your main has a mystery with the same chakra as another ninja, will the other ninja always get priority due to the 'reverse' order?

    Super Lightened Boulder Justsu for double standards is 40 chakra as is Inner Gates Lee's Leaf Hurricane is also 40 chakra. Since you cannot replace your main, it will always go in reverse order due to them both being 40 chakra and cast Lee round 1, correct?

    For the poster above me, I believe whenever Auto is used, they tend to go for the target with the lowest amount of health. There is no perfect way to counter this unless you're able to land standards on the ninja you want to focus so they're the lowest. Using standards that deal damage to multiple ninjas can help, especially if they're using a tank.
    This post was last edited by Bojangle at 2017-5-17 03:51
No, because while you can't replace your main, you can move it. And if you move a character, it will be considered as the last to be placed.
  • Registered: 2017-07-24
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On 2017-05-18 03:14:45Show All Posts
29#
  • Zelgadis~ On 2017-05-17 17:34:28
  • I don't know but what i know for sure is that my mei is placed after tenten gnw but if, for any reason, on round 3 mei still have to cast her mystery (because mabui wasn't able to give her the previous round the chakra) she is the one that uses her mystery in tenten place. Doesn't matter where she is placed on the battlefield nor the order of placement. Her mystery gets priority over gnw tenten one. And there could be only two reasons to explain this: 1) mei's one adds ignition debuff or 2) mei's one could hit targets even in other lineups in comparison with gnw tenten's that can hit only one lineup. I think the ai is scripted in the latter way because the ai the program runs was made for ranked battles/tis/wanteds and just reused for spacetime.
The placement thing is only applied if there is a tie between the priority of the jutsu.
From what I understand, Mei's mystery have a higher priority than GNW tenten's against multiple target (for some reason, GNW tenten's jutsu is considered as a single target I think for the purpose of jutsu priority)

I mean you KNOW that interrupt happens before others, 60 before 40(if possible) etc regardless of placement, right? Well, this is like that... except not as clearly "labeled", there are priorities, and placement are only the tie breaker.
  • Registered: 2017-07-24
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On 2017-05-18 03:19:19Show All Posts
30#
  • Lvl14RuneStone On 2017-05-17 17:13:54
  • well in normal auto, if you wanted a ninja to get a buff applied and to go first , all one had to do was drop that ninja first...
    in spacetime you can't do that(or i dont know how to) as theone to get a buff should be dropped first and the one to skill has to be dropped last (provided that skill is using the highest chakra and other ninjas dont have a BCD=0 skill that costs not more than 40c).

    so yeah, its BS :D
The fact that you would take your regular team and expect it to work in a quite different battle mechanic is BS.

Space time is a battle with a different set of "rules" due to the difference in battle mechanic, you should adjust your teams accordingly. For example, if there was a feature where there are battles on the weekdays with each day of the week providing a 500% boost to damage and hp to character of a different element except the main, where the main is always boosted, would you still take your standard PvP team into that feature? I would guess not, you would probably compose a team that is "of the element" each day for it. Space time is similar, thou less extreme. You got different mechanics and rules, as long as the rules and mechanic are clearly defined and known (not fully the case here, but we have figured most out) so that you CAN make an as-optimized-as-possible team just for it and that the same applies to all players, then it's fair and fine.

If you are unwilling to adapt and fail as a result, you can't blame anyone but yourself.
PS: I'm a wind main so for many of my teams, I have to do clone management to place clones/summons/puppets into the right place. So I know the pain that comes with it, I live with it because that's part of the mechanic.
This post was last edited by PraiseLuka at 2017-5-17 11:20
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