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[ Suggestions ] The Biggest Problems with the game

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  • Registered: 2017-07-24
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On 2018-01-18 06:55:47Show this Author OnlyDescending Order
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This is a list of the biggest problems I see with Naruto Online. These things are the biggest barriers to the game getting better in my opinion. I'm not sure if anybody will ever read this, but I like the game enough to give this one shot. I hope this helps:


1. Pay-to-Win

This is the biggest and most fundamental of problems. Pay-to-Win monetization doesn't work. There's no dispute over this in the gaming community. All games (without exception) that sell progress for money end up catering to the people who pay as an alternative to playing the game. What kind of incentive is there for you (the game developer) to make the game better when you make money from people who pay their way through the bad parts?


Sell aesthetics, capacities, permanent but limited quantity upgrades, reserve currencies or allow trading or do literally anything other than directly selling power. Pay-to-Win is the bottom of the barrel.


2. Luck

You've allowed luck to become more important than player choices. Your game engine is very versatile and good, but when battles are determined almost entirely by random critical hits, random combos, random control failures and random procs, there's no game, it's just a casino. Randomness isn't okay when the effects are too important, like chaos/immobilizing an entire team, etc. You're denying players the importance of their own actions, and it ruins everything.


Remove the luck aspect from mechanics that are too important, like status effects and dodging, and give players back their agency. Battles are already complex enough. They don't need randomness to create fake variety.


3. Patches aren't frequent enough

When I say "patch" I mean, fixing bugs and imbalances. Nothing is going to be perfect when you first add it to the game, and you won't always know exactly what is going to cause problems. You need to be constantly fixing things. I'm not even talking about anything specific, I'm talking about your overall policy of... pretty much never modifying anything after it's released. This is bad.


Be agile. Look for little imbalances that you see and apply small changes once a week. Nothing will ever be perfect, and the game will always change, and that's the point. You can't act like everything is perfect. The best way to keep balance problems from getting out of control is by staying on top of them.


4. Power Creep

Power Creep happens when you aren't coming up with new ways for players to get stronger and instead fall back on bigger versions of already existing things like "More Damage!", "More Chaos!", "More Healing!".


Just use your creativity to expand the game in directions it hasn't gone before. There's also such a thing as "not growing power too much at once", which ties into my number (3) up there. For example, you don't need a ninja that can immobilize an entire team every turn for players to want to get it. Maybe half the team instead? You get the point.


5. Engine Lag

Especially when playing with or against other players, there's a large delay between when we use a mystery skill and when it actually happens. This makes it impossible to use interrupts or other mechanics that require precise late-turn timing, like Deidara's mystery skill. To make it worse, your ninja will sometimes proceed to use their mystery skill as their first action on the following turn rather than on the turn you wanted it to be used, which is often worse than not using it at all. The reason this is a big deal is that it further denies the player control that they need.


I assume this is a latency related issue, but a lot of other games have no similar issues, so I assume it's solvable.




This post was last edited by Khalixxa on 2018-01-18 06:55:47.
  • Registered: 2017-07-24
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On 2018-01-18 07:51:45Show this Author Only
2#

1. If it doesn't work, game like this won't be made. It obviously does "work" for the company, that is to say it is profitable. That is not to say there are no problem with the model, there certainly is. For starters, it bleed players much faster than a game that isn't ptw, both those who are "oppressed" and those who have tried, spending large amount in the process, but failed to reach the top. I could go into details as to why this model works despite the player bleeding, but I would expect any such exposition to be modded so I digress. Just know that it is not particularly customer friendly but is profitable for the companies, so you are operating under false impression--they are not aiming for what you think they are.


2. To be fair, dodging are becoming increasingly absolute. So.... Also to be fair, randomness is not an issue when law of large number goes into effect. 8 gate, for example, is relatively stable due to the low per-use cost, thus resulting in literally hundreds of thousands of proc if not more. As a result, 8 gate is not actually all that luck dependent even thou it is RNG. The problem with RNG lies when the entrance cost is high, chance is limited and/or "top" prize extremely rare. This means there is little to no chance for law of large number to properly kick in and equalize the chances. So luck/RNG is not the fundamental problem per-say, but rather how it's used. This game mostly offends people due to its bad RNG implementation on ptw events (and lack of objective evidence to counter the "rigged" claims)


3. Oasis doesn't have access to the code, weekly changes are entirely unreasonable for the license model this game operate under. While I agree faster patch pace would be nice, what you are asking for is entirely unrealistic. There are other issues with your logic, but this alone will suffice


4. It's not as easy as you might think. While I want creativity over power creep as much as you do and I can't say if tencent is trying particularly hard, there is really a soft limit to how far creativity can go. So in reality, there will always be power creep, just a matter of the rate. More creativity can stretch out each "cycle" longer, but once they have exhausted that, hello creep.


5. Actually, in addition to potential "latency" as usually considered as internet problem there is the additional constrict of flash rendering speed. But barring all those, that is to say you got a good machine that can render optimally and internet that have no delay, there is still a problem: chase. Specifically, the server side does not wait on a chase attack more than it does if the attack have no chase. So as soon as a reasonably long chase occur, client side fall behind by the amount of time it took for the chase to resolve. This would require some kind of code fix to resolve and certainly should be a priority. For the moment however, you can somewhat play around this by knowing the fact that the delay is not random but rather deterministic. That said, no amount of software can account for actual latency nor should a player be expected to wait on another player because the other player lags. So as far as delay caused by actual lag goes, aside from optimization to reduce lag, nothing should be done.

  • Registered: 2017-07-24
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On 2018-01-18 11:23:37Show this Author Only
3#

Ofc people who p2w are going to benefit more from the game. The problem I have with it is that rare ninja in this game are way too expensive. I almost feel like they would make more money by lowering prices on ninja and some other things because then some people (including me) could get past the "Why would I spend $600+ on 1 ninja in a browser game" and starting doing a bunch of smaller microtransactions to get multiple ninjas. I feel like a lot more people would spend and the game would be a bit more fair if prices were lowered. A lot of f2p people feel overwhelmed by these prices when they are trying to piece out a ninja from events and can only get maybe 5 frags max per event and that ninja may only show up once or twice a month in events. More people would stay then and merges wouldn't have to happen so often.

There is somewhat of a wall once you get so high in magatamas/rune stones etc, but they have been releasing more power options like Myoboku cult and summon cult. China has more way to power up that we should eventually get.

I do agree that the latency issue is a bit of a problem. I don't like how the game resumes after a few hits of a chase and leaves you not able to cast a prompt skill before a couple standards go off. I understand latency being a problem, but there should be some kind of fix for the chase issue since it's not latency, it's just the game resuming while you are left waiting.

  • Registered: 2017-07-24
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On 2018-01-18 20:05:44Show this Author Only
4#
Note: Sorry,the post does not exist or has been deleted
  • Registered: 2017-07-24
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On 2018-01-18 21:27:47Show this Author Only
5#

Without pay to win , there won't be f2p. Someone has to pay for servers and staff...not to mention royalties they have to pay for Naruto creator. Would be nice they add those 100 coupons thing they have in China. Small spenders could benefit. Agree with everything except points 1 and 4. They have been giving away lot of ninja frags for free ( minato jonin and masked man) and spenders had to spend 20k to get each ninja. So they are not biased.




This post was last edited by JustSaying on 2018-01-18 21:37:07.
  • Registered: 2017-07-24
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On 2018-01-19 13:45:44Show this Author Only
6#
  • JustSaying On 2018-01-18 21:27:47
  • Without pay to win , there won't be f2p. Someone has to pay for servers and staff...not to mention royalties they have to pay for Naruto creator. Would be nice they add those 100 coupons thing they have in China. Small spenders could benefit. Agree with everything except points 1 and 4. They have been giving away lot of ninja frags for free ( minato jonin and masked man) and spenders had to spend 20k to get each ninja. So they are not biased.

You really wanna go back to the P2W vs F2P debate?


I don't think that's a good idea mate. If you really want to try and convince me that F2Ps' existence in the game is dependent on P2Ws, do it in a Private Message and not here. I don't want to clog up the forums with more of that.


Anyways, we're digressing. I don't have much to say here except on the powercreep. I don't mind powercreep as long as it doesn't COMPLETELY INVALIDATE any specific character who I want to play. If I wanna invest in Sakon and Ukon, it shouldn't be a total waste and they shouldn't be completely outclassed by some other Edo Tensei guy who got like 5 pages worth of action.


Powercreep is kinda necessary to keep the game interesting, however. Sure, creativity is cool. But creativity with a drop of powercreep can be interesting – just take a look at the "Fanmade future ninja talentsets" thread in the Fanfiction section. Some of the super powercreepy fanmade characters there are actually quite creative.




This post was last edited by Dosu on 2018-01-19 13:47:39.
  • Registered: 2017-07-24
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On 2018-01-20 01:31:03Show this Author Only
7#

you forgot the the "Events" hahaha

  • Registered: 2017-07-24
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On 2018-01-21 01:47:23Show this Author Only
8#
  • PraiseLuka On 2018-01-18 07:51:45
  • 1. If it doesn't work, game like this won't be made. It obviously does "work" for the company, that is to say it is profitable. That is not to say there are no problem with the model, there certainly is. For starters, it bleed players much faster than a game that isn't ptw, both those who are "oppressed" and those who have tried, spending large amount in the process, but failed to reach the top. I could go into details as to why this model works despite the player bleeding, but I would expect any such exposition to be modded so I digress. Just know that it is not particularly customer friendly but is profitable for the companies, so you are operating under false impression--they are not aiming for what you think they are.


    2. To be fair, dodging are becoming increasingly absolute. So.... Also to be fair, randomness is not an issue when law of large number goes into effect. 8 gate, for example, is relatively stable due to the low per-use cost, thus resulting in literally hundreds of thousands of proc if not more. As a result, 8 gate is not actually all that luck dependent even thou it is RNG. The problem with RNG lies when the entrance cost is high, chance is limited and/or "top" prize extremely rare. This means there is little to no chance for law of large number to properly kick in and equalize the chances. So luck/RNG is not the fundamental problem per-say, but rather how it's used. This game mostly offends people due to its bad RNG implementation on ptw events (and lack of objective evidence to counter the "rigged" claims)


    3. Oasis doesn't have access to the code, weekly changes are entirely unreasonable for the license model this game operate under. While I agree faster patch pace would be nice, what you are asking for is entirely unrealistic. There are other issues with your logic, but this alone will suffice


    4. It's not as easy as you might think. While I want creativity over power creep as much as you do and I can't say if tencent is trying particularly hard, there is really a soft limit to how far creativity can go. So in reality, there will always be power creep, just a matter of the rate. More creativity can stretch out each "cycle" longer, but once they have exhausted that, hello creep.


    5. Actually, in addition to potential "latency" as usually considered as internet problem there is the additional constrict of flash rendering speed. But barring all those, that is to say you got a good machine that can render optimally and internet that have no delay, there is still a problem: chase. Specifically, the server side does not wait on a chase attack more than it does if the attack have no chase. So as soon as a reasonably long chase occur, client side fall behind by the amount of time it took for the chase to resolve. This would require some kind of code fix to resolve and certainly should be a priority. For the moment however, you can somewhat play around this by knowing the fact that the delay is not random but rather deterministic. That said, no amount of software can account for actual latency nor should a player be expected to wait on another player because the other player lags. So as far as delay caused by actual lag goes, aside from optimization to reduce lag, nothing should be done.

Note: Sorry,the post does not exist or has been deleted
  • Registered: 2017-07-24
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  • Posts: 128
On 2018-01-21 03:19:18Show this Author Only
9#
  • Brandenlol On 2018-01-18 11:23:37
  • Ofc people who p2w are going to benefit more from the game. The problem I have with it is that rare ninja in this game are way too expensive. I almost feel like they would make more money by lowering prices on ninja and some other things because then some people (including me) could get past the "Why would I spend $600+ on 1 ninja in a browser game" and starting doing a bunch of smaller microtransactions to get multiple ninjas. I feel like a lot more people would spend and the game would be a bit more fair if prices were lowered. A lot of f2p people feel overwhelmed by these prices when they are trying to piece out a ninja from events and can only get maybe 5 frags max per event and that ninja may only show up once or twice a month in events. More people would stay then and merges wouldn't have to happen so often.

    There is somewhat of a wall once you get so high in magatamas/rune stones etc, but they have been releasing more power options like Myoboku cult and summon cult. China has more way to power up that we should eventually get.

    I do agree that the latency issue is a bit of a problem. I don't like how the game resumes after a few hits of a chase and leaves you not able to cast a prompt skill before a couple standards go off. I understand latency being a problem, but there should be some kind of fix for the chase issue since it's not latency, it's just the game resuming while you are left waiting.

I agree. $600 for one ninja makes me want to vomit, but I take a weird pleasure in the horror my non-player friends express when I describe this sort of situation to them.

  • Registered: 2017-07-24
  • Topics: 55
  • Posts: 1094
On 2018-01-21 06:30:05Show this Author Only
10#
Note: Sorry,the post does not exist or has been deleted

Okay, calling him names is not gonna make your argument any more convincing.


From my perspective, the general problem with P2W games is that they lack permanence. What happens when a whale is forced to quit the game from real-life things? Back in the day when the game was young, I saw a handful of my server's whales quit because of real life issues; things like divorces, new jobs, et cetera.


So who's going to replace them? The F2Ps all the way down at the bottom of the barrel? Do they seriously believe that, with the huge money gap that's already between them and the P2Ws, that it'll be worth spending to try and catch up? Even when the remaining P2Ws are still spending and widening that gap?


The reason people pay is either to dominate others or to catch up to others. Once people realize that neither of these things are permanent, that this will get nowhere they lose faith and stop spending. Once the pay-to-free gap is so large that none of the F2Ps even stand a chance, even if they dump their entire life savings into the game, that's the point where the game starts to fail.


...Well, that's the idea at least. Yes, you are correct in that there will always be that group of people who pays no matter what, maybe they're spontaneous or lack self control or something like that. The devs might murk up or hide the fact that no amount of catchup will make up for the gap, and as a result people will still pay. I dunno really.


...You know, I kinda lost track of the point I was trying to make with this. Oh well.

  • Registered: 2017-07-24
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On 2018-01-21 08:37:03Show this Author Only
11#
Note: Sorry,the post does not exist or has been deleted

You need to learn to read.

Nowhere did I say there is no problem with the game. I just said it works for the company, which is contrary to what the OP said. And based on your post, you agree with me (thou you don't quite know the full picture) that the game is NOT "working" because it's a good game. You haven't made a single statement that's actually contrary to what I said.


And no, GLs do not have NDA like you said. They are allowed to but not required to disclose their status. And many have, including some of the youtubers. Fact check plz

  • Registered: 2017-07-24
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On 2018-02-02 04:39:17Show this Author Only
12#

For every problem that is "too difficult to solve", there are examples of other developers who have somehow managed to pull it off, often times many years in the past that can be easily referenced.


I'm not blaming anybody, but it is what it is.

  • Registered: 2017-07-24
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On 2018-02-02 16:27:14Show this Author Only
13#
  • MissMarionette On 2018-01-21 03:19:18
  • I agree. $600 for one ninja makes me want to vomit, but I take a weird pleasure in the horror my non-player friends express when I describe this sort of situation to them.

You tell your friends that don't play about this game and the prices? I would be way too embarrassed to do that lmao! They would probably send me to counseling.




This post was last edited by Brandenlol on 2018-02-02 16:28:17.
  • Registered: 2018-03-14
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On 2019-08-01 02:47:32Show this Author Only
14#

Hm, i dont inderstand this./..




This post was last edited by foogos on 2019-08-01 02:49:36.
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On 2019-08-01 04:33:57Show this Author Only
15#
  • foogos On 2019-08-01 02:47:32
  • Hm, i dont inderstand this./..

Then don't comment and bring up an old post. Mods can you close the post so people like this don't bring up old posts?

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